Hello everyone! First of all, I’d like to announce that apparently my cupcake SUCKS cause I am losing pitifully. But oh well, at least I have cupcakes!!
I would LOVE to share this gem I received in my comments today….oh, it is quite fun-filled. Hope you get a good laugh from it as I did! 
Apparently this is from someone who calls himself “NotADumbassWhoBelievesEverythingHeReads”. Oh yeah, it gets better! Now you knew from that name that he just HAD to be an idiot, but let him prove that himself!
Christ people. Meat is good for the body. Long before PETA has brainwashed the dumbass people that follow the Vegan bible man has consumed meat, whether it was fed straight manure or straight grass. And on the topic of what the cows eat, tests of meat have shown how much protein, vitamins and minerals are in the meat, so as far as your “12 years of biological science higher education” goes, suck a dick, the burgers, steak, and chicken I eat DAILY provide me with what I need. Do you really think the cows gave a damn about where their food came from? If they were being fed the meat from aborted babies, assuming they liked the taste, they’d refuse to eat? I really doubt that. Yeah, we’re smarter than they are and we’re at the top of the food chain, that doesn’t make you right, in fact that makes you silly vegans wrong. We’re (and I really mean the people who eat what they want to eat) able to feed these cows what we feed them because they’re willing to eat it and from what I’ve heard from the cows, no complaints have been made. You people make me sad for the human race because of how wrong you are and how right you think you are. You chew on your asparagus and broccoli and other crap you choose to eat because you refuse to think for yourself, I’ll buy double the meat to take your place and throw what I don’t eat in the trash. You people make me sad for humanity because of the stupid you spread. I’m living a life full of good tasting food though, with all the essentials the body needs from meat. So you do you and I will laugh at you simple bitches every time your pompous ass laughs at the lifestyle that has worked for hundreds of years. Dipshits.
Okay, I will let you absorb that comment for a bit. Take all the time you need! I actually was somewhat happy to receive this comment…hell, I was a little iffy on what to write about tonight but this gave me the perfect topic! Idiots! Yay! The never-ending topic that always brings me such agonizing joy to complain about. Now lets go through this, shall we? Side note: this was a comment left on my Cows Fed Junk Food piece.
Christ people. Meat is good for the body. Long before PETA has brainwashed the dumbass people that follow the Vegan bible man has consumed meat, whether it was fed straight manure or straight grass.
First of all, even a great number of doctors are finally coming to the conclusion that meat is BAD for the body. How else would you explain the tremendous rate of high cholesterol, heart ailments, heart attacks, obesity etc etc.? And how would you explain that these ailments only generally arise in a “western” style diet? Asian countries who are becoming more “western” in diet or wealthy (and therefore able to afford meats etc., depending on how you wish to look at it) are finding their rates of these ailments increasing drastically. They have gone from nearly no such ailments in their societies to great numbers suffering from them. Oh, that must be from the tomato and lettuce ON the burger. Damn tomatoes, screwing all of us up! Second of all, I am anything BUT brainwashed. If anyone is brainwashed it is this fool who continues to swallow every ounce of propaganda given to him by the government and meat and dairy industries. Also, I don’t adhere to ANY bible. I personally don’t believe in the bible one iota. But that is another topic altogether. As for PETA, I don’t get much, if any, of my information from PETA actually. I find that I don’t often agree with PETA, but I do find it is a good source of information for people just starting to explore animal rights.
on the topic of what the cows eat, tests of meat have shown how much protein, vitamins and minerals are in the meat
Hmm, how does this make my junk food point invalid in any way? Was there supposed to be a test showing the level of chocolate in their system? Because I really doubt they would go through the trouble of testing the meat for every iota of nutritional information since they won’t even test every cow for Mad Cow Disease (and other diseases). Hell, they don’t even test 5%, if even 1%.
the burgers, steak, and chicken I eat DAILY provide me with what I need.
Oh yes, and the artery clogging that is occurring DAILY brings me great joy. Here’s to your heart attack! May you enjoy it as much as your burgers 
Do you really think the cows gave a damn about where their food came from? If they were being fed the meat from aborted babies, assuming they liked the taste, they’d refuse to eat? I really doubt that. Yeah, we’re smarter than they are and we’re at the top of the food chain, that doesn’t make you right, in fact that makes you silly vegans wrong.
Ouch, he is trying to get Pro-lifers involved too! Wow, attacking vegans and pro-lifers (I’m sure some are one in the same). Sorry for the graphic image people, hope you weren’t eating lunch! Hmm, I dare say the mother of this uneducated, brainwashed idiot should have given a second thought to having him. Moving on though. Let’s see, do I care where my food comes from? Yes. Does a cow care where it comes from? Well I suppose a cow wouldn’t necessarily care where it came from, but I have a pretty good idea it would care WHAT it was. Cows are not scavengers, they do not eat anything and everything. They have preferences involving their diet (and their lives), or else they would be just like a vulture. So no, cows wouldn’t care where their GRASS came from, but they sure as hell probably care why they are forced to eat CHOCOLATE. Guaranteed: if a cow had a choice between fresh grass and ethanol waste, he is choosing the grass.
Yay for silly vegans and their long, silly, healthy lives! Oh and there are plenty of people who are far less intelligent that any cow you could find me. FAR LESS INTELLIGENT.
We’re (and I really mean the people who eat what they want to eat) able to feed these cows what we feed them because they’re willing to eat it and from what I’ve heard from the cows, no complaints have been made.
Wow, all this time I have been forced at gunpoint to eat my veggies! Holy crap, I must have been forced to make it too! Damn, someone really has some control over me. Oh if only I could think for myself. IF ONLY!
Hey, this guy can talk to cows! Holy crap, I’m in awe of his cow communication. He must communicate with one just about at his level too or else I’m sure he would have heard SOME sort of complaint. At the very least in the realm of “please don’t slaughter me”. Hmm, maybe I have had it wrong all this time. Wow, he really has opened my eyes. Cows speaking English (I assume it isn’t Russian or Spanish since this guy communicates in English), what will do next?
Cows Can Speak English!!
You people make me sad for the human race because of how wrong you are and how right you think you are. You chew on your asparagus and broccoli and other crap you choose to eat because you refuse to think for yourself, I’ll buy double the meat to take your place and throw what I don’t eat in the trash. You people make me sad for humanity because of the stupid you spread. I’m living a life full of good tasting food though, with all the essentials the body needs from meat. So you do you and I will laugh at you simple bitches every time your pompous ass laughs at the lifestyle that has worked for hundreds of years. Dipshits.
Such sweet parting words, brings a tear to my eye. *sniffle* I think I am in love! A cow whisperer and poet to boot! Oh, be still my heart!
Where to begin…WHERE to begin.
It really is funny that we “people” make him sad for the human race. Funny because I find that people who have their heads stuck up their asses are the ones who are ruining the human race. Especially when they reproduce and spread the bigotry, stupidity and overall angry traits. Did you happen to notice that all of a sudden I CHOOSE to eat what I do? Wow, what a transition. I just had a gun pointed at my head a minute ago too. Phew, glad that is over!
How exactly is it that I do not (and others who are vegan) think for myself? Would the LOGICAL situation not be that those who are following the STANDARD diet are the ones not thinking for themselves? Those who are doing just as the meat and dairy companies are wanting them to do, they are the ones NOT thinking for themselves. Since only less than 1% of the United States’ population is vegan, and only about 1-2% are vegetarian, that leaves…ooooh over 97% of Americans following the standard meat, dairy then maybe some veggies diet. Wow, somehow the less than 1% are so strong and powerful that they can brainwash me to eat what they eat! Wait, did they also force me to read books, go to school and to love animals? OMG, they had me since birth. Those bastards and their mass of media outlets constantly bombarding me with images of what I should be eating. Oh please, make the billboards, neon signs and commercials dictating that I am to eat at a vegan restaurant go away! I can’t take all the veggie burger advertisements any more! Wait a minute, they never advertise for veggie burgers on television. I’ve also never seen a billboard saying where the next exit for a vegan restaurant was. Holy crap, I have seen such a thing for McDonald’s, Burger King, Wendy’s, Taco Bell, KFC and the like though. OMG, could the cow whisperer be wrong? Could the meat eaters actually be the brainwashed ones? Thank my vegan bible, it is true!
My guess: this person is not very well educated, has at the very least his head up his ass, is a bigot, is a bachelor, doesn’t believe in global warming and loves fast food. What age are you giving him? Since I don’t know his age now, I am going to guess a heart attack at the ripe ol’ age of 45. Hopefully he won’t have reproduced by then.
Oh, and Mr. Dumbass, all comments of yours will be dismissed, so don’t even bother.
Sara said,
September 3, 2008 at 3:22 pm
For some reason, the song from ‘Wizard of Oz’ kept popping into my head as I read this commentary..”If I only had a brain…”
Nicely done Nikki! Seriously, was this guy trying to make valid arguments? I, too, don’t often agree with PETA – yeah, it’s a good resource for those who know nothing of animal rights, but once someone with half a brain actually reads something about animal rights finds that PETA doesn’t actually live up to all the facets of animal rights. The whole, ‘I’d rather go naked’ campaign..great for getting the message across that fur is bad, but totally glossing over, if not exploiting, the objectification and exploitation of women which totally parallels the exploitation of animals. So I don’t really know if any vegans (other than celebrities) actually look to PETA as the end-all, PETA is more a vegetarian-centered organization, not vegan (and yes Mr. Dumbass..there is a difference). And I guess that meat being healthy and good for you is the reason my uncle’s country-boy doctor told my otherwise healthy uncle (who exercises like mad but eat’s meat) to go vegan in order to save his life, and the fact that if my uncle hadn’t been biking 5 miles a day on top of coaching a championship football team his entire life he would’ve had a heart-attack so horrible it certainly would’ve killed him – that’s all because meat is good for you.
Geez, I didn’t know that my degrees in the biology and physiology could only get me the prize of sucking dick! Whew…perhaps now I can use that to pay off all my student loans. Maybe he was just absent that day that they taught about bioavailability and metabolism of nutrients in the foods we consume. Yes, of course meat is filled with proteins, vitamins, and minerals – all meat is filled with proteins, vitamins, and minerals – including human meat. That’s what makes up meat. I don’t know anyone who doesn’t know that much at least – but I’m around people who think most of the time, clearly Mr. Dumbass doesn’t meet that requirement. But whether or not those molecules are accessible to us through our digestive system should be his argument. And I hate to be the bearer of bad news, and I certainly don’t want to brainwash anybody by the stroke of my keyboard – so if you’re weakminded close the page now (whew..Mr. Dumbass is gone now), but those molecules are not as bioavailable as those same molecules which come from plants. You know, I think you’re right Nikki..here’s to his heart attack..may it hit him as swiftly as the comment hit your blog! Of course, I would never wish harm on others (ergo veganism), but some people just deserve to be removed from the gene pool.
Furthermore, hasn’t it been shown that it’s people with higher IQs that tend to become vegan or vegetarian? Of course, you can’t trust those silly standardized tests in the least. But wait..Einstein didn’t eat meat, Abraham Lincoln didn’t…. Brian Greene (physicist), Darwin, several famous MDs, oh and let’s not forget Howard Lyman – former cattle rancher! I guess they were all brainwashed by PETA…oh wait, was PETA around when Darwin was writing ‘On the Origin of Species’? …when Lincoln was freeing the slaves? hmm… Well, maybe they were retro-brainwashed along with Plato and Socrates, and Newton and Schweistzer…none of them could think for themselves – someone had to have given them their genius contributions to humanity as well as giving them the credit.
Cows caring where their food comes from? Seriously, this is what he wants to argue? Clearly he doesn’t care where his food comes from, so how could we expect him to relate that to another animal and their source of food. And as far as who is smarter…certainly I would have to rank cows as a higher intelligence than Dumbass, here. Just because he lucked out and was born to the Homo sapiens instead of Bos taurus or whatever other animal he thinks is below our level of intelligence, doesn’t mean we’re actually smarter – and he makes quite the case for that argument. Again, one of the rare times that size doesn’t matter. Sure, smaller brains indicate less ability to manipulate complex thoughts, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t intelligent and use to the full potential what they have. Shouldn’t the level of intelligence be based on the ability to use what we have and not the size? Our brains are bigger, but that doesn’t mean we use them any better than a cow or even a frog, which are assumed to have less intelligence. And just because we set the rules for intelligence level (and therefore call ourselves intelligent, and those who are different than us as less intelligent..oh wait, we’ve seen this before throughout history..hmm..racism anyone), doesn’t mean we are at the top of the food chain. Simply because we have built cities around us in place of tents in the wide open spaces doesn’t mean we don’t have any natural predators. Before we built these concrete jungles, other animals would kill and eat us – ergo NOT at the top of the food chain, as some people would like to think. There is no one animal on this earth that has no natural predators – we can all be eaten by something! Just because we’ve removed ourselves from the wild doesn’t mean it no longer exists. Carnivores typically eat herbivores. Herbivores DON’T eat carnivores or other herbivores. If they did, they would be carnivores or omnivores – cows are herbivores…not chocolatovores or potato chip-ovores or carnivores (when eating other cows and such). Humans, if you examine the physiological design of a human, are by all rights herbivores…that’s why consuming an omnivorous diet is slowly killing us (and by us, I mean those who eat what they want because they are brainwashed into believing that meat is the only source of protein and that dairy provides calcium).
Not only does Mr. Dumbass not care about himself, he refuses to care about the planet in which he lives and in which the poor soles who are called his loved-ones live. His disregard for other forms of life is what’s sad – regardless of what form that other life comes as…himself, his loved-ones, or the animals which have to endure painful slaughter just to end up in his garbage. And since he finds all this so sad at the stupidity we vegans are spreading, we should just forget all the benefits those who eschew meat (that means abstain from) have brought to society up to now – the Pythagorean theorem, bye-bye all things based on mathematical equations such as architecture protecting us from living in the wild and being eaten by lions and bears. Slavery abolition and human rights, bye-bye rights of all people to live free and independent, out from under the thumb of the rich white man. Bye theory of relativity…Goodbye theory of evolution (although Dumbass probably discounts that anyway). See you later women’s suffrage movement! ..and here’s a few people Dumbass could say goodbye to, and I have no doubt he knows who they are and the joy they’ve brought to many a men – Jenna Jameson and Serenity…
Alex said,
September 13, 2008 at 9:01 am
It’s interesting that he assumes that we “don’t think for ourselves,” which has, by his argument, engendered our decision to go vegan. When, in reality, given the extent of the rhetoric, acculturation, and political messaging on the side of eating meat, it’s only reasonable to argue that he is the one not thinking for himself. One could employ equal logic and argue that those who consume meat are merely “brainwashed” by agribusiness, or misinformed by those in positions of authority who are themselves duped by the meat and dairy lobby.
This assumption permeates the anti-vegan discourse: Because we have chosen to take our own premises regarding suffering to their logical and ethical conclusions, and this end happens to differ from the majority, our message is political, while there’s is not, and we are the group being conditioned to believe X, while they are free thinking individuals. When considered without bias, it is wholly unreasonable to find any validity in this assumption given that the pro-meat message is so widespread, and the monster ideology justifying the pro-meat message is all-pervasive – from conception, to birth, to death.
Taken further, underlying this individuals rant is a defense of the premise that if a belief is widely accepted it is, almost by default given the absence of support, “right.” We who decide to challenge this premise, arguing instead, as the anti-slavery and women’s rights movements of the past did (and continue to do), that the dominant ideology we are each conditioned to believe is beyond reproach is not necessarily moral. On this individuals logic, the human rights movement would have stalled; abolitionists of the past would have been defeated; etc.; etc.
veganverve said,
September 13, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Thanks for the comment Alex! Yes, I found his argument proposterous as well. His logic is completely backwards…..vegans are the ones going against the norm, hence against the brainwashing. It’s rather interesting how deeply the meat and dairy industries are able to brainwash, sad for animals and humans. Guess most humans aren’t as mentally strong as they care to believe….forever ensnared in meat and dairy propoganda.
Brian said,
October 1, 2008 at 7:01 am
Don’t believe the doctors! Look at the animal kingdom,…..cows…donkeys….sheep…..gnu’s……all vegetarian…relatively stupid! Cats, dogs, chimps..lions..tigers…man…..all carnivore or omnivore…..relatively intelligent! If all humans became vegans tomorrow, the lack of protein will dull the brain, reduce the intelligence and stop evolution. We are NATURALLY omnivorous. A vegan diet is NOT what nature intended for us. If it did, we would all be in a field munching grass! I’m sure the run of the mill VEGAN also believes we humans cause Global Warming, even though it’s happened many times in the history of the planet wihout our participation! People are like sheep, believe everything one group of scientists say but disregard the ones who tell the truth. I reckon it’s the sheep like vegans who believe this rubbish.
Brian said,
October 1, 2008 at 11:47 am
Ah! I am flabbergasted! I see you are involved in censorship at Vegan Verve!My sensible and scientifically correct argument has been removed.Your site does say that comments are welcome. Obviously you just prefer to include the idiots and have great fun knocking them down…but when you see an argument you cannot defend against, what do you do? You remove it. How mature and balanced your site is! Why don’t you try to have some courage and put my comment back on the site? Its the one about stupid herbivores and intelligent carnivores and omnivores. I’m sure read it and realised how weak the vegan argument is, but you dont want to upset the converted, and are afraid they might think for themselves.
Brian said,
October 1, 2008 at 11:49 am
I DO apologise! my comment is there! Read it! It’s all true. Don’t deny your nature. Eat meat!
)
veganverve said,
October 2, 2008 at 1:43 am
First of all, all new comments must first be approved before appearing officially on the site. Secondly, I had been unable to even tend to my blog for over a week due to moving.
The vegan “argument” is not weak, however your argument is. Do you even realize that your entire argument is based upon speciesism? You have assumed that donkeys, sheep, gnus etc. are all unintelligent beings but you have no proof. Even if there was scientific “data” to insist that these animals are unintelligent, it truly only implies that these animals do not meet human-made criteria for intelligence. Just as many humans have differing intelligence….some are wise in regards to physics, but another is wise in literature….neither one may have a clue when it comes to the other. Are they any less intelligent? Perhaps not. Also, as shown by the human example, each animal in any species is different….in behavior, temperment and intelligence.
There have been studies that say that chickens may in fact be as intelligent as dogs….they just so happen to be vegetarian. What about pigs? They prefer vegetarian diets and they are more intelligent than dogs and more intelligent than 3 year old children.
Don’t believe the doctors? Most run of the mill doctors are horrified when you tell them you are vegetarian, nonetheless vegan. So yeah, thanks….I don’t believe the doctors…good advice!
In regards to dulling our brains….most vegans have higher IQs than the general population (as do children who were raised vegan). Also, vegans are not lacking in protein in the least…clearly you know little about a vegan diet. Legumes, vegetables, tofu, soymilk, rice, wheat etc etc. ALL have protein. Vegans sometimes actually could have to worry about consuming TOO much protein, since that can cause disease as well.
I find it interesting that the “sheep” are vegans, not the general population spoon-fed the idea that meat and dairy are food gods by the MEAT AND DAIRY corporations. Those who buck the system are not necessarily the brainwashed individuals. Also, in regards to global warming….yes, there has been cyclical warming and cooling of the earth many times but never at this pace. Since the industrial revolution our contribution to the warming of the planet has greatly sped up this “phase”. Before the invention of vehicles, airplanes etc. and before factory farming was prevalent, our contribution was minimal. But now we cannot say the same.
Clearly your comments are easily argued, there was no reason for me to delete your comments. Patience is a virtue.
Sara said,
October 2, 2008 at 2:19 pm
Not only do vegans have to worry about consuming excessive or deficient amounts of protein – meat-eaters do too! It’s not a vegan-only phenomenon of trying to consume the correct amount of proteins, carbs, vitamins, minerals, etc… The majority of people are malnourished (i.e. not getting the proper amounts of nutrients from a balanced diet; hence the increase in diabetes and other metabolic disorders, cancers, etc), not even touching on the fact that not only are an atrocious amount of people malnourished, they are also undernourished. Here in the US, where people are fighting obesity (and some even just accept obesity), large populations of people are fighting starvation because of the diversion of grains to animals instead of those people…but that is a whole other post in itself.
So Brian, let’s talk about biology. On this one account, I do agree with you – don’t believe the doctors (and at this time I’d like to separate the MDs from the PhDs). Very few MDs are willing to look at all the facts and state that a vegan diet is much healthier for you than one that contains meat. They are swayed by the Pharmaceutical Industry who holds hands behind the bleachers with the Meat and Dairy Industries – all the big money is connected. Most Biology/Physiology PhDs on the other hand, understand on a fundamental molecular level the metabolic workings of cell. Regardless of the source of their funding, most will give you an honest (often, off the books) opinion of what they feel to be healthy and intelligent forms of consumption – whether or not they publish said opinion based on data acquired in the lab is a different matter. And while I’m the only vegan scientist that I’m aware of at my academic institution, all my meat-eating colleagues agree with me that meat is not the healthiest thing for humans to consume. We have intelligent fact-based debates on the subject and they all agree with me on the health issues while the animal rights issues remain to be heated debates, yet they feel they couldn’t do it themselves (which is, in my opinion, a personal fear of leaving the comfort of mainstream). Of course they don’t have all that lack of protein dulling their brain because they do eat meat. And yes, an MD will tell you to eat meat just eat less of it – because they don’t have the cojones to go against the mainstream…oh wait, isn’t that what most people deem to be sheep-like behavior. No, they can’t be the societal ‘sheep’ because they’re doctors and they went to med school, so they know what they’re talking about. Personally, I would trust a General Physiologist over a Medical Doctor any day when it comes to biology.
If nature intended us to be vegan, you seriously think that means we should be in a field munching on grass? You’re worried about the evolutionary process stopping, but do you know anything about evolution and how it works? We can not make the assumption that simply because humans have the mental ability to conceive of and put into action the act of mass production of animals in a fixed space, slaughter them, and feed them to us, that means that nature intended it to be so. Does that mean nature also intended us to live in high-rise condos, and drive gas-guzzling SUVs, and transmit photons through a satellite feed from one central source to millions of televisions around the world? If we’re making the argument of what nature intends, we need to consult Darwin..but oh wait, we can’t because as a vegetarian his brain may have been dulled by lack of protein and thus nothing he proposes would be credible.
Now, looking at the animal kingdom we see many intelligent animals that are vegetarians. You classify primates as omnivores or carnivores, when very few actual “wild” primates are carnivorous or omnivorous. Primates, for the majority (with minor exceptions for times of necessity and survival, and a few being true omnivore/carnivore) are herbivorous. In times of necessity and survival, like normal food sources depleted, animals are known to eat outside of their normal domains of sustenance. If you look at anthropological data, in unbiased (non-vegan) books and texts all accounts point to human primates consuming diet consisting of fruit and veg…food that is “gathered.” It wasn’t until the advent of tools that men began killing large animals, and not as a food source, but as a means to exert their dominance over other men in the tribe or men of other tribes – not to mention their dominance over the “lowly” animals, and women who were the original food providers.
Come back when you have actual data to support your claims of sheep-like behavior in humans leading to veganism. By the shear nature of the claim, you Brian, are following a sheep-like behavior by regurgitating what the agricultural industry has been filling the minds of television-soaked drones with for decades. Meat good, milk good, eggs good. Does anyone else remember Kevin Nealon’s SNL character, Subliminal man?
Maybe I should ask you this Brian, do you know what critical thinking means?
Brian said,
October 3, 2008 at 7:26 am
Yes Sara, critical thinking is being able to distinguish between fact and opinion and as a result being able to make assertions on sound logic and solid evidence taking into account historical fact. Fact: Humans are omnivorous. Our digestive system is an evolutionary development as a result of this diet and has developed over millions of years. I will agree with some of your ideas. Yes, the modern human eats too much meat. Vegetables are naturally a bigger part of the diet than meat. Meat was difficult to find and our ancestors could not go to the local supermarket and buy it every day, but they did eat it. Why? It was an essential part of the diet. The hunter needed superior intelligence to capture and kill an animal for food. It was the challenge of the hunt and the resultant reward of high quality protein that grew the human brain to what it is today. The dolphin which has a considerably more complex brain than we humans are exclusively carnivore. The human brain weighs 1400 grams, the sheep brain 140 grams, the bengal tiger brain is 75% larger than it’s main prey animals, hog deer, spotted deer, barking deer etc. Even in the bird world eagles, hawks, crows etc who are either carnivorous or omnivorous have bigger brains and are better problem solvers than seed eaters. Are you really telling me that sheep could be as intelligent as humans? As for pigs, well it is a very popular misconception that pigs are vegetarian! Pigs are extremely intelligent but like us they are not vegetarian, they are omnivorous! . They most defintely do not have a preference for vegetation. They are fed this in captivity, in the wild a pigs natural diet does include fruits, roots, mushrooms, grasses, etc but when they can get protein i.e earthworms, snakes, and rodents and sometimes the young of other wild pigs they are very entusiastically carnivorous and actually go on hunting forays very regularly. If a pig is big enough and hungry enough Sara, it will eat you!
Critical thinking just does not work if you apply it to a vegan diet.
Sara said,
October 3, 2008 at 5:00 pm
The size of the brain has no correlation with intelligence – or at the very least, the ability to use said intelligence; as so often exemplified by humans throughout history. A hunter did not need superior intelligence to capture and kill an animal for food, but rather the weaponry to kill his victim from a safe distance, to avoid being malled by his prey. Sure, the hunter needed some sort of intelligence (basic synaptic transmission) in order to contrive said tools and weapons, and it’s been proven that the use of tools is common in our non-human primate societies from which we observed from them, and then adapted that skill to our own advantage. So, this could fall under that high level of intelligence category: monkey see, monkey do. And simply the ability to use tools does not a carnivore/omnivore make, since most primate diets are known to be almost exclusively herbivorous. A true carnivore/omnivore does not need tools in order to capture and kill its prey.
Let’s take a look at evolutionary studies, shall we. Primates evolved from ancestral mammals more than 60 million years ago, which resembled small rodents or tree shrews. Like tree shrews, they probably had huge appetites and foraged at night for insects, seeds and buds on the forest floor. The Hominids probably emerged between 10 million and 5 million years ago with the common characteristics of bipedalism and brain expansion and elaboration (increase in neuronal complexity – not an increase in “intelligence” although that’s what we like to associate with larger brains). Apes include any member of the primate families Hylobatidae (includes the gibbons) and Pongidae (the great apes: includes the orangutan, the chimpanzees, and gorilla). They belong to the superfamily Cercopithecoidea, the Old World monkeys and apes. Apes, or anthropoids, are distinguished from other primates by their complex brains and hence presumed intelligence, their large size, and their lack of tails. And oh yeah, they are mainly vegetarian.
Remains of skeletons from 4 million old australopiths (transitional ‘humans’ between the Miocene apes and later hominids) were found. Unlike apes, their jaw was slightly bow-shaped and their dentition suggests that some were omnivores and others, vegetarians – which have been taxonomically segregated into two subspecies of Australopithecus. So, here is where you and I agree and disagree at the same time. There was a subspecies of early humans who were omnivores, but also true, a subspecies of early humans who were vegetarian (which are considered to be the subspecies which gave rise to modern humans).
The omnivores were slightly built, and the vegetarians were heavily built, taller, and muscular, characterized by heavy molars and small incisors adapted to a vegetarian diet. Australopithicus robustus had strong jaw muscles and large, heavily cusped molars. This hominid may have specialized in chewing seeds, nuts, and other tough plant material. A.africanus was probably omnivorous. It’s cheek teeth formed a platform that could grind plants, but its incisors were relatively large, as in the case for carnivores. Humans today do not have relatively large incisors, as would support your omnivorous claims. By about 2.5 million years ago, hominids started making stone tools and are referred to as the “early Homo”. Compared to the australopiths, these “early Homo’s”, had a smaller face, more generalized teeth, and a larger brain. This hominid apparently was a scavenger and gatherer of plant material and insects. And it may have been ancestral to modern humans. So, I suppose…sure, we do eat insects – there are studies showing how many microscopic bugs we eat in our sleep, or randomly, but I would hardly use insects as a basis for omnivorism.
Studies over the last 20 years which examined the diet of neotropical monkeys, as well as the Great Apes, show that their diet, like most anthropoids, are almost exclusively herbivorous. A strong focus on plant foods is characteristic of all great apes–our closest living relatives — and there is strong concensus that the ancestral line giving rise to both humans and extant apes was likewise very strongly herbivorous. Dietary analysis of the food items (all of plant origin) consumed by these primates shows that in the category of fats, the diet of ancestral humans, like the diets of wild monkeys and apes, was likely very rich in both omega three and omega six fatty acids. If you compare humans and wild howler monkeys in terms of their respective patterns of fatty acid consumption – howler monkeys eating a typical leaf and fruit diet show a polyunsaturated to saturated fat ratio (P/S ratio) of 0.85 – which is very close to the P/S ratio of 1.0 recommended for humans. The P/S ratio for the average American is not around 1.0, but is in the range of 0.4 to 0.5. It is also recommended that humans take less than 30% of daily calories from fats. Fats contribute only around 18% of the daily calories for howler monkeys but most Americans exceed the suggested 30% recommendation.
Many nutrients come in various forms and these forms can produce quite different results within the body. It has also been shown that if you feed a true carnivore a diet high in saturated animal fats that it will not acquire cardiovascular diseases (hypercholesteremia, atherosclerosis, etc), yet feeding a true herbivore minor levels of saturated animal fats affects systemic functions within the cardiovascular, neurological, and reproductive systems. This is why a diet rich in fruits, vegetables, and seeds is the healthiest form of nutrient intake for humans, and other primates. The rising incidences in human diseases (cancer, cardiovascular disease, etc) parallels the rising consumption of animal products in the diet. Not only can this be seen evolutionarily, but as Eastern diets increasingly resemble a Western diet, you can see the increase in the incidence of typically Western diseases, such as diabetes, obesity, cardiovascular disease and cancer. Just because we can put something in our mouth and swallow doesn’t automatically translate that we SHOULD put it in our mouth and swallow, or that it’s evolution allowing us to. Whether or not our bodies will be able to one day consume any animal product without repercussions on ones health remains to be seen. We have not reached that rung on the evolutionary ladder and our bodies are not equipped to fully metabolize and utilize the nutrients founds in animal products. Why? Because we are not biologically omnivores. Societally, and stubbornly, people have forced the omnivore “slipper” onto our foot, but that’s just the ugly step-sister attempting to squeeze her foot into a shoe that’s too small. All that can come of it is blisters and broken toes, and eventually..a shattered shoe. And, in case I need to spell out the metaphor – blisters = heart disease, broken toes = metabolic dysfunction, shattered shoe = decrepit and diseased human body.
Aside from the physiological and anthropological data to support a diet that is exclusively herbivorous, I now have to bring in the point of the unnecessary slaughter of these animals for what is claimed to be necessity. If we can acquire all our nutrients, and not only all of them but in much healthier forms, through the consumption of plant material, why are we taking the lives of living beings in order to acquire the same nutrients in much more detrimental forms?
Switching to the diet of wild pigs, actually Brian – you’re correct..wild boars (Sus scrofa) are in fact omnivorous. However, you are wrong in that you claim they don’t have a preference for vegetation. The diet of wild pigs consists of 90% plant matter and only 10% animal matter. Plant matter consists of roots, bulbs and tubers (unearthed by rooting with their long snouts) and fruit and berries. Animal matter can consist of mice, birds eggs, snakes, lizards, worms, beetles and centipedes and carrion. We at least agree on what wild boars are eating, but you seem to be confusing pigs hunting for food – as that includes plant material such as hunting for and digging up tubers – with the anthropomorphizing of the term ‘hunting’ as humans define it. I think, if a wild boar were under strenuous conditions in which it found no supply of roots or tubers, fruits or berries, mice or snakes, etc…then I agree…it might attack me – but perhaps that would only happen on the notorious island in which all meat-eating humans place vegans where we have to choose between eating meat and starving to death.
You’re right, critical thinking isn’t necessary in arguing for a vegan diet – health and compassion seem to be something that should be common sense.
Brian said,
October 9, 2008 at 6:12 am
Sara!
I have just noticed your reply and I must say you are a wonderful debater! I have to atend a lecture right now but I will read your message in full later and try to sell you some good counter arguments!
Have a great day!
Celebe said,
April 1, 2009 at 6:56 am
Hmm. I am rather disappointed in the argument presented by this guy. He is your classic inconsiderate coherent homo sapient. I am not myself a vegan, but he does make meat eaters look like a bunch of fools; worse than fools, rather wicked and senile and wretchedly uneducated. Well, fortunately I know this description is not unique to any one group or classification of people. there are assuradely some vegans who are just as profane and base, but this should not warp in any way ones over all view of one who is a vegan. Rather we should approach each person as separate and unique. This guy (I assume its a guy for some reason) uses the basest language and the most ill- conceived arguments that can be construed. “A harsh word stirs up anger, but a gentle answer turns away wrath”. This is, I have found, unwaveringly true. Our young poltergeist here feels the need to scorn and degradate a certain kind of lifestyle, which, in all probability, has no serious effect on him. Why does he do this? simple. He is used to hardened feelings, comfortable with mean spiritedness, and desirous to raise himself up by putting others down. Now, as I said, I am also not a vegan. Perhaps some day i will be (cows are really cute). I understand a vegans sentiments and thoughts, though. We each have our opinions, right or wrong, and we should be fully convinced of them so that our lives are blameless, as is said “Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats…”.
One more thing. This person really astonishes me. He tries so hard to laugh at vegans and justify his scorn, that he ends up becoming the object of his laughter, for everyone but himself that is. When one tries to raise themselves by degrading others, they actually are lowering themselves as far as possible, but are hoping that they wont look as low if everyone around them is just as low. I have a friend who loves to make fun of everyone, but hates it to the point of wrath when he is made fun of. The inevitable effect of this is the obviating of his reasoning power in the moment of his anger. this commenter is undoubtedly the same.
Another thing. Does this issue even warrant such outrageous, and petty name calling! I mean, really! I know that I have made disparaging comments about vegetarians and vegans before, a proof that i am not perfect, but I try not to stoop so low and hit the ground in front of the vegan. I would much rather hit the head with just reasoning and delicate sentiment (one must be standing to do so). That was just a metaphor, for those whom it confused.
Anyways, I would love to debate about the issue of veganism and its subdivisions with any one out there. It is a fascinating issue! And you can be sure that you will be talking to someone of refined character who will not start the blame game
Celebe said,
April 1, 2009 at 7:45 am
OH! Wow! Brian and Sara! I had not read your conversations yet. Ahh. how refreshing to hear (rather see) a modicum of useful and intelligent debate. I love both positions.
Brian, (sara, you can read this too, ha ha!) I believe you are correct when you point out the constantly recurring correlation between the size of the brain and its consequential manifestation of having a omnivorous or carnivorous diet. (not the brain, but the owner of the brain). Critical thinking is essential to every part of our lives, and consequently also to our diets. However, I do not meant to imply that that means mathematical of scientific calculation of all our actions. By no means! Where as the linear logical and scientific mind set is useful in many things, it is not useful in all. Sara, I am impressed with the depth of knowledge you display and your ability to tailor your argument to it and also vice versa. However, this direction of reasoning does not apply to the decisions of humans in eating meat or vegetables. One can not always use materialistic data and the scientific method to reason out Humans contemporary diet. This is where the complexity of the human comes in, above dolophins, or pigs, or crows, or apes. We are by nature a philosophical and self-knowing creature, who evaluates personal actions by a vast array of criteria; scientific, emotional, spiritual, mental, relational, philosophical, etc. If we were only capable of knowing only the materialistic world, or rather viewing the world only from this point of view, then perhaps we would only eat vegetation. Yet as Brian pointed out, that is not necessarily the case. You aslo made a good point in regards to the cruelty to animals issue. Humans, unlike other species are capable of cruelty and wretched behavior to others. This is not necessary and is vile. I do not agree with it and have done much to tame that unseemly characteristic, not only in myself, but in others as well. I congratulate those that are vegans that try to ban animal cruelty. But there is more. Animals are killing each other all the time. How do you respond to that? Taking your view, the animal kingdom is filled with the desperate and violent struggle to survive. As is almost always the case, herbivores are the prey of omnivores and carnivores.
Mike Hipp said,
September 10, 2009 at 5:28 am
I think this guy might be about to switch over to veganism. No really, hear me out.
I was this almost this guy 5 or 6 years ago, just months before I went vegan. I actually went on a podcast and argued with a vegan guest all of the standard line….. maybe plants have feelings, PETA is dumb, we have canine teeth therefore we should eat meat.
Just a few months after I did that, I was vegan. I think, in the back of this dude’s mind… even if he doesn’t know it yet, his omnivoure mind is having a cosmic battle with his burgening conscience.
To put this a much simplier way I will quote on of my favorite historical figures:
Methinks he doth protest too much.
veganverve said,
September 16, 2009 at 6:00 pm
Perhaps you are right Mike….I sincerely hope you are! Glad to hear your inner battle ended with you being vegan! That’s wonderful.